A Perfectly Imperfect Union: Reflections on America 250 with Susan Snodgrass

<p> Hey there, it's Michael. Welcome to Whole Again, the show that's here in support of you creating a meaningful life and the person you're becoming. And I'm excited to share a new series with you that will air this summer as America turns 250 years old, which is still pretty young relative to many other countries across this big blue marble that we all share.</p>
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<p>The series is called A Perfectly Imperfect Union. In 2022, I rode my bike across America from Astoria, Oregon to the Lincoln Memorial. My wife drove our RV and she had two co-pilots, Chester and Hope, two Springer Spaniels And when we did it, America was coming out of the pandemic and we were hurting.</p>
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<p>Hurting from things that had happened prior to the pandemic. Of course, going through what we all went through. And at that time, and this is something I still believe today, is that we were entering an inflection point. An inflection point for us to hopefully pause, breathe, and reflect on who we wish to become as individuals, as communities, and as a country.</p>
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<p>As I pedaled across America, I wanted to share America's beauty with others, her natural beauty and the beauty of her people. And I also wanted to share where we were hurting As America turns 250, I believe Kintsugi, which is something we use as a metaphor here at Whole Again, is a perfect metaphor for where we are as a country.</p>
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<p>There's so much beauty to celebrate, and we can also acknowledge that parts of us feel broken or are broken, but we can find a way to come back together, just like Kintsugi teaches us. And when we do, we don't try to erase or cover up where we have scars or blemishes. We highlight them in gold, and we celebrate them as symbols of our strength and resilience.</p>
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<p>Kintsugi is called the golden repair, and in essence, we can see beauty in something that's perfectly imperfect. During this series, I plan to speak to at least two people in each state and the District of Columbia. So 102 conversations with real folk, as I like to say. We're gonna let the celebrities and the big influencers have their day somewhere else.</p>
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<p>But here, I want to reach out and talk to real people and listen to their reflections as they think about America turning 250 years old. And my hope is, is that you'll tune in to at least one, if not all 102, because my theory going into this is that you'll hear different perspectives. Some may be aligned with yours.</p>
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<p>Others may not. But my hope is that you hear the goodness in your fellow citizens and realize, as Maya Angelou shared with us, "We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike." We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike. I've had the privilege of traveling all over the world and all over this country, and this belief is something that I hold deep inside of me.</p>
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<p>So yes, I do believe that we are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike. So if you're ready to get to know one of your fellow neighbors, take a healthy breath in and a slow, releasing breath out and get to know Susan Snodgrass.</p>
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<p>Susan, so good to see you. Thanks for joining me on this series. I'm calling it Perfectly Imperfect Union. I'm so glad you took me up on my offer to join me for the conversation. </p>
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<p>Well, thank you for inviting me, Michael. It's a pleasure to be here. </p>
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<p>Yeah, it's good that we get a chance to talk again. It's been a few years, like pandemic era, so it's good to reconnect.</p>
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<p>So for the people that don't know you, who are you? And where are you dialing in from, or I guess videoing in from? </p>
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<p>Wow. Those are big questions for you </p>
<p></p>
<p>and I. Big questions, yes. </p>
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<p>Yeah. So I'm Susan. I'm dialing in from Wilmington, Delaware. </p>
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<p>Awesome. First- Welcome ... first state. That's awesome. </p>
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<p>Yes. </p>
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<p>And for those that don't know Delaware, because in this co- this is a big country.</p>
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<p>Mm-hmm. </p>
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<p>Not everyone's been to every state, and some people might know Delaware as the first state- </p>
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<p>Mm-hmm ... </p>
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<p>but maybe nothing beyond that. So what's something cool about Delaware that people might not know about? </p>
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<p>Well, um, it's very beautiful. So, um, we are very close, where I am now is very close to Philadelphia, so, uh, when I'm talking with people, they'll say, "Where are you from?"</p>
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<p>Not really from here, but I live and work in Wilmington, which is about 20 miles from Philadelphia. </p>
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<p>Very cool. Mm-hmm. So you get a little Delaware, Pennsylvania, and Jersey. That's your tri-state area, I guess. </p>
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<p>Exactly. Though people talk about Delmarva. Delmarva. So that's Delaware- Oh, yes ... Maryland, and Virginia.</p>
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<p>Yes. </p>
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<p>Mm-hmm. </p>
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<p>Yeah. Yeah, I've been to Delaware a couple different times. When I was first starting off my professional career, uh, I was part of a co-share for a beach house. I, I was 23, so y- uh, you might know where this is going. It w- </p>
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<p>Yeah ... </p>
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<p>Dewey Beach- Yeah ... and all the hoopla and all the shenanigans. I lasted a summer before I got m- my senses knocked into me, and I was like, "Okay, that's...</p>
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<p>I've done that. I've checked that box in my life." Yeah. "I don't need to do it anymore." So, but I did enjoy my time in Delaware. It's... I've been cycling through Delaware multiple times, and it's a beautiful, flat place to ride a bike, and great vistas. So- </p>
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<p>Yeah ... </p>
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<p>it's, it's A-okay in my book. </p>
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<p>It's not all flat, so you'd be very surprised.</p>
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<p>Ah. You get a little bit off I-95, and you will find beautiful wooded areas, and- Nice ... there's some nice elevations. Not mountains- </p>
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<p>The, not mountains, </p>
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<p>but- ... but lovely elevations ... </p>
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<p>very cool. Very cool. Yeah. So let's, let's do this. Let's imagine it's the summer. </p>
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<p>Mm-hmm. </p>
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<p>You might be by the water, or maybe you're near, like, a fire pit.</p>
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<p>You're enjoying the outside, and you have your family, your friends around you, and someone in that crowd asks you, "Hey, Susan, what does America mean to you?" Mm-hmm. What do you say as you're maybe having a s'more and enjoying the campfire? </p>
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<p>Yes. So what America means to me, I think it's the opportunity that we can all do well if we try hard enough.</p>
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<p>Oh, yeah. </p>
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<p>But is that still true? </p>
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<p>Yeah. Yeah. Well, some of the data coming out suggests that it's not, you know? Yeah. </p>
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<p>It's </p>
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<p>that, uh, it's harder now to move from, uh, demographic to demographic or economic stratosphere to economic stratosphere or levels. Yeah. That it's getting harder and harder to do that. </p>
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<p>Yeah.</p>
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<p>And, and I think you may not know this about me. I'm not from here. I've kind of lived everywhere, which gives me a good point of view. But I was born in West Virginia, and my father was a coal miner. </p>
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<p>Oh, wow. </p>
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<p>So I think... And I was raised in eastern Ohio. I think I sort of exemplify what we of my generation felt, like the ability, if you work hard enough and study hard enough, you can lift yourself up.</p>
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<p>Yeah. I, I, I grew up with that ethos too. Yeah. Like, you, you put in the effort, you work hard, and you can make something of yourself. But I think, you know, again, the, the conversations, uh, lead us to this conclusion, the data does, that Gen Z or Gen Alpha, maybe even younger millennials, don't feel the same way as some of, um, us older folk, I guess.</p>
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<p>Yeah. And I think for me, I am very grateful to the things that were part of America that helped me: public school education and land-grant college for undergrad degree. So all of those things, I, I don't know if we are s- I don't believe that we're supporting them as we should, 'cause people like me were helped by the systems around us.</p>
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<p>Yeah, I hear you. Yeah. I hear you. So you're the first person, not the first person in my life, but the first person in the series that has some roots in West Virginia. </p>
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<p>Mm-hmm. </p>
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<p>So we might- It's </p>
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<p>beautiful. </p>
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<p>It's beautiful, yeah. So d- can you share anything in particular about West Virginia that you appreciate besides just the natural beauty?</p>
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<p>I think the people are genuine. I, a- again, I was born in West Virginia. Sure. And raised in eastern Ohio, but my dad was a deer hunter. You've seen the movie The Deer Hunter? Yes. I mean, that's what I grew up with. And, um, I think there are a lot of values that we share, but when I go back, I see people who are left behind, and how do we help them?</p>
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<p>Yeah. Right? Yeah, absolutely. </p>
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<p>That's </p>
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<p>a </p>
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<p>good question. That's what I think about, 'cause they're good people. </p>
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<p>Yeah. Yeah, they're good people. Yeah, good people just trying to live a good life. </p>
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<p>Yeah. You </p>
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<p>know? And, and try to make things better for, for their kids than they had it for themselves, yeah. </p>
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<p>Exactly. So I, I think there's still hope as long as- Yeah</p>
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<p>as we're talking, and, you know, I admire people who go out and just talk with people and try to find that, you know, silver thread of alignment. </p>
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<p>Yeah. </p>
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<p>Yeah. </p>
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<p>Yeah. So we all have probably a version of what Ideally is America. Mm-hmm. Like America at its best. So we have that ideal, and then we also have, like, where we are right now.</p>
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<p>Yeah. </p>
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<p>And most people will say that there's a gap between where we are and what we could be or what we can be. </p>
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<p>Yeah. </p>
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<p>And so when you think of that gap, do you see any particular tensions or challenges that are getting in the way of us really, like, living into our full potential as a country? </p>
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<p>I do, and, and I think it is not doing what we are doing right now.</p>
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<p>Yeah. We're not talking and finding that place where we all align for that 80, 90%, and having the opportunity to talk through the rest of it and find common ground. I think we're just not doing that. I'm, I'm tired of this K-shaped economy. </p>
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<p>You know? Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. </p>
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<p>The, </p>
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<p>the, the ultra rich. It's not even just the rich.</p>
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<p>Like when, when I was growing up, I'm Gen X, so you know, it was like the rich. And now it's like there's a- another level of rich. Yeah. Like, the ultra rich are just getting more ultra Yes. And the people on the bottom are falling further and further behind. Yeah, I, I sh- I share that. The... You know, I think one of our divisions that we don't talk about enough is just the lower end of the K and the upper end of the K.</p>
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<p>Mm-hmm. We often talk about red versus blue, but that economic gap is a significant one. </p>
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<p>Yeah. No, I, I think you're absolutely right, and where, um, in conversations that we have, uh, amongst family and friends, you know, we bump into that, that period, place in between- Mm-hmm ... where maybe something that might have been good for a lot of people had an unintended consequence.</p>
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<p>Is it bad? No. Let's fix it. </p>
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<p>Yeah. </p>
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<p>I think it's that gray area, and that's where most of life is anyway, right? </p>
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<p>Absolutely. It's not in a black or white. It's in the- Mm-hmm ... shades of gray that we all experience as we go through life. </p>
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<p>Yeah, absolutely. </p>
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<p>So you mentioned, yeah, you mentioned fixing, and so I use Kintsugi, the Ja- Japanese art form and philosophy, as a metaphor for my podcast and also just my overall story.</p>
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<p>And I think it's apt for where we are as a country, where, you know, things might break, but we can come back together. Instead of hiding our, our blemishes or our scars, we paint them with gold, and we celebrate them as symbols of our strength and resilience So when you think about coming together or healing or repairing or fixing something, whatever verb you wanna choose- </p>
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<p>Mm-hmm</p>
<p></p>
<p>what's one thing that you would like to work on that could help us heal, come together? Maybe not in a perfect way, this is perfectly imperfect by, after all, but in a meaningful way. What would that be? </p>
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<p>Mm-hmm. Well, from a personal point of view, I think it's improving my listening. Ah. So, so, and when we get to the place where we disagree, it's stopping a moment and, like, borrowing from improv, saying, "Yes, and..."</p>
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<p>Instead of saying, "What?" You know? It's, "Yes, and..." And I... That's been very helpful to me, because you have to listen, and sometimes people can't come up with good reasons why they feel a cer- certain way that, uh, is in opposition to what I feel. And when they don't, sometimes they go, "Oh, hmm, I think that's interesting."</p>
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<p>But being open to, to listening better. </p>
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<p>I like that. We do a lot of yeah but-ing, not enough of, of yes, and. You know, it's like, "Yeah, but..." You know, we- </p>
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<p>Yeah ... </p>
<p></p>
<p>it almost fuels our addiction to being right. </p>
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<p>I like that. </p>
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<p>When I was going, when I was going through my recoveries from my big accident 25 years ago, one of the shows that actually was a great, um, source of entertainment for me was Whose, Whose Line Is It Anyway?</p>
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<p>Yes. </p>
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<p>Which is all improv, which I would just sit in the hospital... You know, in, in the hospital, it's, it's, it's rough. It's, it's, you, you know. Like, it, it can be... You get good care, but also it, you got a lot of time to think. Uh, you know, a lot of time to think about your, your situation, your predicament, or however you wanna view it.</p>
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<p>But Whose Line Is It Anyway? brought me such great joy, and that was really, besides Saturday Night Live, um, was a, um, uh, entree into improv and just that whole yes, and concept, which, uh, I... And I still watch the show to, to this day. </p>
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<p>I love it. Oh, I, I love that show as well. </p>
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<p>It's so, it's so funny, and so great, so I, I encourage anyone listening to check it out.</p>
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<p>So next question, because it's a birthday coming up, 250 We, uh, generally eat cake. </p>
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<p>Mm-hmm. </p>
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<p>In America, we have cake, birthday cake. So this is a two-part question, Susan. What kind of cake are you serving for America's 250th birthday? And since we have a few candles to blow out, we have time, we have a little time to make a wish.</p>
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<p>So as we blow the candles out, what wish do you wish to make for the country? </p>
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<p>Wow, both good things. So it's a little boring, so if I choose the cake that I would serve, it's gonna be vanilla. </p>
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<p>Okay, vanilla with vanilla frosting or chocolate frosting? </p>
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<p>Yeah, unfortunately. I like vanilla. You could put some sprinkles, maybe some Funfetti.</p>
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<p>Uh- Okay ... the kids usually like Funfetti. Um, it's a little bland, but if you want a, the wish, uh, the wish is we could all take a minute and find what binds us together. </p>
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<p>Hmm. </p>
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<p>That's the wish. </p>
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<p>Yeah. I, I share that wish. I've often said that if... Well, I usually say this about the whole world, but let's just take our country.</p>
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<p>If we can all take a minute a day to hit pause, take a few deep breaths, and then use that, use that minute as a moment of reflection, reflecting how we wanna show up next for ourselves and each other, I think we'd have a more peaceful world. </p>
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<p>Yeah. I, I think so. I think so. Instead of being labeled this way or that way, if we're just people and trying to get by most of the time, and I, I'm trying to, to take that moment for myself if somebody's really annoying me just to say, "Hmm, that's really not about me- </p>
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<p>Yes</p>
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<p>it's about my reaction." So let's figure out why they are doing X, Y, or Z and just enjoy them for who they are, right? </p>
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<p>Absolutely. We're all trying to figure it out as we all go through something at different moments in our lives, so we can offer ourselves some grace and we can offer each other a bit of grace.</p>
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<p>I think that would go a, a long way. So in my previous conversation with someone actually named Michael, not me, but another Michael, I asked him what he would like to ask of you, so one neighbor to another. And so his question to you is, is there a national park, or if you have never been to a national park, maybe a favorite destination in the country that really, uh, helps you feel grounded and in touch with nature, maybe a sense of awe?</p>
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<p>So what, what would that be for you? </p>
<p></p>
<p>Well, uh, we were recently at Muir Woods. </p>
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<p>Ah, such </p>
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<p>a great place. </p>
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<p>And it's </p>
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<p>so amazingly beautiful, and you're surrounded by these huge trees, and you see how insignificant you are compared- </p>
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<p>Yes. </p>
<p></p>
<p>You feel like walking into a hobbit hole. But what I realized when I was there is that they actually had, uh, they held something for the United Nations there early on.</p>
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<p>Wow. </p>
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<p>In Muir Woods. </p>
<p></p>
<p>I didn't know that. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Yes. </p>
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<p>How cool. </p>
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<p>And I think what a lovely place to enjoy the splendor of the United States, of the world of nature, than looking at those big trees who have been there longer than we have. </p>
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<p>Absolutely. </p>
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<p>Mm-hmm. </p>
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<p>Yeah, there's something about being in the same space as something quite enormous.</p>
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<p>Mm-hmm. </p>
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<p>Like Muir Woods, the Grand Canyon, going out into a place where there's no light pollution and looking up at the night sky. </p>
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<p>Mm-hmm. </p>
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<p>Uh, we, it puts things in perspective when we start to think that we're the biggest thing around. Nature has a way of grounding us, and, uh, I love that. Muir Woods, for anyone that hasn't gone, go check it out.</p>
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<p>It's one of those things that I believe should be on everyone's bucket list. </p>
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<p>Yes. And looking up at the stars, there was actually a, a poem in The New York Times last week, "Memorize this poem" by W.H. Auden about looking at the stars. </p>
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<p>Yes, I saw that, yeah. </p>
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<p>And I just thought, you know, what a beautiful thought, right?</p>
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<p>I- Yeah ... I think it's lovely. </p>
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<p>Yeah. Growing up, one of my favorite school trips was always to go to the planetarium. Like, we'd go to the planetarium, and they'd shut off the lights, and then they would obviously artificially put up the night sky, and I was like, "Oh, wow, this is pretty cool." So I had dreams of being an astronaut when I was a kid, so it probably is all, is all connected.</p>
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<p>So, all right, so that's the question Michael had for you. Now you get to ask a question of the next person I chat with in the series. So what question would you like to ask the next guest? Hmm, the </p>
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<p>next guest. Um, well, there are two ways I could look at this. One of them, I'd like to ask people what their favorite flower is.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I grow orchids, so what's your favorite flower? </p>
<p></p>
<p>Oh, yeah. </p>
<p></p>
<p>But does that reveal much about the next person? </p>
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<p>Yeah. Mine is sunflowers. I grew up, um, across from a sunflower farm. </p>
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<p>Yeah. </p>
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<p>So, uh, I always loved it when, uh, they grew to f- their full height, and they just, like, followed the sun. So it was always a good view to look out the window and see all the sunflowers.</p>
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<p>I, I think that, for me, is very interesting. Or what's your favorite quote? </p>
<p></p>
<p>Oh, great. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Mm-hmm. </p>
<p></p>
<p>I will ask both of them. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Okay. </p>
<p></p>
<p>So, uh, both of those questions, uh, when I talk to, uh, your next, uh, neighbor here in this perfectly imperfect union that we're hopefully taking a step towards making a bit better. So Susan, thanks for joining me on, uh, on this, uh, little project this summer.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Thanks. </p>
<p></p>
<p>I appreciate the ripple effect that you're putting into the world, and, uh, loved our conversation. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Thank you.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I hope you enjoyed getting to know one of your fellow neighbors from Delaware. My goal in the series is to speak to at least two people in each state and the District of Columbia so we can put a green check mark by the state of Delaware, the first state, and the first state to have two conversations, previously with Morty and now with Susan.</p>
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<p>And I love Susan's wish. I have said for years, if we can all take a moment, a minute perhaps, to pause, breathe, and reflect on her wish, on the things that bind us, the things that we have in common, we would live in a kinder, more peaceful nation and create one heck of a ripple effect. Of course, I think we all know that if we really want to come together, it will take more than just wishing.</p>
<p></p>
<p>It will take action. And maybe that action starts with a conversation, a conversation that allows us to be fully seen, heard, and appreciated, or I would say loved, one human to another, even if we don't see the world the same way. I believe that 97% of people are good. There's a like-heartedness in that goodness.</p>
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<p>And if we lead with our heart, we can be open to different mindedness. That's how we can come together and form a more perfectly imperfect union. If today's conversation resonated with you, I hope you'll share it with someone you know. And if either you or someone you know would like to join me for a conversation, please reach out.</p>
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<p>And until our next episode in our Perfectly Imperfect Union series, let's remember to celebrate our scars as golden symbols of our strength and resilience. Happy birthday, America. And don't forget to have fun storming the castle.</p>
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<p>And if you wish to learn more about creating beautiful ripples and how to prevent a bad moment from turning into a bad day, please visit my website, michaelobrienshift.com, and sign up for my newsletter called The Ripple Effect. And join us each Monday, Wednesday, and Friday here at Whole Again, and discover how you can heal, grow, and become more resilient, and celebrate our scars as golden symbols of strength and resilience.</p>
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<p>Until then, remember, you can always come back to your breath. You've got this, and we've got you</p>