A Perfectly Imperfect Union: America 250 with Chris Wozniak (378)

<p> Hey there, it's Michael. Welcome to Whole Again, the show that's here in support of you creating a meaningful life and the person you're becoming. And I'm excited to share a new series with you that will air this summer as America turns 250 years old, which is still pretty young relative to many other countries across this big blue marble that we all share.</p>
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<p>The series is called A Perfectly Imperfect Union. In 2022, I rode my bike across America from Astoria, Oregon to the Lincoln Memorial. My wife drove our RV and she had two co-pilots, Jester and Hope, two springer spaniels. And when we did it, America was coming out of the pandemic and we were hurting.</p>
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<p>Hurting from things that had happened prior to the pandemic, of course, going through what we all went through. And at that time, and this is something I still believe today, is that we were entering an inflection point. An inflection point for us to hopefully pause, breathe and reflect on who we wish to become as individuals, as communities and as a country.</p>
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<p>As I pedaled across America, I wanted to share America's beauty with others, her natural beauty and the beauty of her people. And I also wanted to share where we were hurting. As America turns 250, I believe Kintsugi, which is something we use as a metaphor here at Whole Again, is a perfect metaphor for where we are as a country.</p>
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<p>There's so much beauty to celebrate and we can also acknowledge that parts of us feel broken or are broken, but we can find a way to come back together just like Kintsugi teaches us. And when we do, we don't try to erase or cover up where we have scars or blemishes. We highlight them in gold and we celebrate them as symbols of our strength and resilience.</p>
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<p>Kintsugi is called the golden repair and in essence we can see beauty in something that's perfectly imperfect During this series, I plan to speak to at least two people in each state and the District of Columbia. So 102 conversations with real folk, as I like to say. We're gonna let the celebrities and the big influencers have their day somewhere else, but here I wanna reach out and talk to real people and listen to their reflections as they think about America turning 250 years old.</p>
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<p>And my hope is, is that you'll tune in to at least one, if not all 102, 'cause my theory going into this is that you'll hear different perspectives. Some may be aligned with yours, others may not. But my hope is that you hear the goodness in your fellow citizens and realize, as Maya Angelou shared with us, "We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike."</p>
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<p>We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike. I've had the privilege of traveling all over the world and all over this country, and this belief is something that I hold deep inside of me. So yes, I do believe that we are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike. So if you're ready to meet one of your fellow neighbors, take a healthy breath in and a slow releasing breath out and get to know Chris Wozniak, or as his friends call him, simply Woz.</p>
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<p>Hey, Chris. Great to see you. Thanks for being here and doing this with me. </p>
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<p>Absolutely, Michael. It's great to see you, too. Thanks for letting me be part of it. </p>
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<p>Yeah. So people are just listening to this. They don't see it 'cause we're not sharing the video, but I will let everyone listening, Chris has the best background, video background I've seen all day 'cause he's got his two bicycles in the back.</p>
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<p>So I'm already biased going into this, uh, conversation with you, Chris, so I know it's gonna be a good one. So, uh, uh, besides your bikes, uh, for people who don't know who the heck are you, who are you and, uh, where do you, where do you hail from? </p>
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<p>Well, my name is Chris Wozniak, and as you know, Michael, uh, most people know me as Woz.</p>
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<p>Yep. </p>
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<p>There's a, there's at least one other Person with my last name who's a bit more famous than I am, who also has that nickname. I am not, I'm not related to him. Um- Yes ... although I'm using one of their products at the moment, uh, on my MacBook. So- Okay. All </p>
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<p>right. But </p>
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<p>yeah, so I go by Waz. I live in Colorado, and I've been here for about 22 years in Denver.</p>
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<p>Uh, but I was born in Ohio, in northern Ohio. Lived there for a few years, but really grew up in West Michigan. </p>
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<p>Okay. All right, you got three states. You, well, you have the Centennial State there in Colorado, and then- </p>
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<p>I do ... </p>
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<p>a good state of Michigan, go Blue. Uh, we're a go Blue household, uh, from my wife's side, and- Cool</p>
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<p>and a little Ohio. So you got three states covered, so, uh- Yeah ... pretty cool. But we'll focus in on Colorado. Um- </p>
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<p>Sure ... </p>
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<p>so Am- Americans don't necessarily travel all that much. You know, we go from place to place, but this is a big country, and it's hard to get to every one of the 50 states. So for someone who has never been to Colorado, what's something special about it that you would like to share?</p>
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<p>Well, that's a great question. And to be fair, I, I feel like I know Colorado better these days- ... since I've spent the last, the most recent decades here. Um, well, most people I think when they think of Colorado and they've seen pictures, they think mountains, of course the Rocky Mountains. </p>
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<p>Yeah. </p>
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<p>Uh, so that could be skiing, it could be hiking, and that's all true, and it's majestic.</p>
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<p>Um, you know, we are the highest, uh, av- we have the highest average altitude of any state, uh, overall. All right. Um, I'm living at Mile High, Denver- Yes ... the Mile High City. But what's unique or what's something special is Colorado actually has an amazingly diverse geography. So, you know, the eastern part of the state is all grasslands.</p>
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<p>There are two national grasslands on, uh, the eastern half of the state, and we border Kansas and Nebraska, so I think most people can appreciate what that might look like. </p>
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<p>Yep. </p>
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<p>And then you have, you know, on, in the s- in the western slope, so meaning west of the Continental Divide where the Rocky Mountains go north to south.</p>
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<p>On the west side it's very high and very dry. We border Utah on that side, as well as New Mexico and Arizona, the Four Corners areas. Desert. </p>
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<p>Yeah. </p>
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<p>Mesa Verde National Park, if anyone's ever seen pictures of that, for example. Um, and even people who have skied are used to the pine forests and the, the slopes, but we also have alpine tundra.</p>
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<p>You know, you get high enough and it's, there's just lichen and moss and- </p>
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<p>Yeah ... </p>
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<p>wind-blown rocks and things. Uh, so y- y- it's a really diverse state. Um, and I'd say there's plenty to see. So- Um, I'd encourage you to go to the mountains. There's, there's plenty to see there, but also there's a lot of other things to, to take in.</p>
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<p>Yeah, no, it's a great... I had, I had such a great pleasure going through Colorado, although when I got the, into the first part of Colorado on my bike ride, it wasn't until I got to, like, Breckenridge, where I actually felt like I could, like, exhale completely- ... 'cause the roads were quite narrow, and it seemed like everyone was towing a bunch of fun in the back, you know, from their pickup truck.</p>
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<p>So it made a lit- it a little squirrely riding my bike there without a good bike path, but still, um, great mountains. And yes, the eastern part of Colorado, um, is so much different. So yeah, I love- Mm ... the diversity of Colorado, so it's, uh, it's very cool. So I want to invite you to picture yourself at a big picnic table.</p>
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<p>It's the summer. </p>
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<p>Mm. </p>
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<p>You got your friends, you got your family, uh, around you, colleagues, business associates, you name it. You bring them all to the table, right? </p>
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<p>Right. </p>
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<p>And someone asks you, "Hey, Chris, um, what does America mean to you?" Uh, how do you respond? </p>
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<p>Well, you know, that's a, that's a trick question, Michael, because, uh Um, you know, it, it means so many things, and I, I thought about this a bit, and if I had to boil it down to, to kinda one idea, it's possibility.</p>
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<p>And there's a lot of, uh, positive an- connotation to that, right? Um, and also some things that imply you're never quite getting to what you wanna be or what's, what's next. You know, there's always something more and possible. So, um, as I said, I grew up in Michigan. I was fortunate to grow up in a smaller college town on the west side of the state, and aside from it not, not seeing the sun too often for about six months of the year- Yes</p>
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<p>um, I, uh, I was really fortunate to have kinda the outdoors as a backyard. Not like here, but, um, to me, the idea of possibility was always kind of inextricably bound to this idea of exploring, of discovering the diversity of, well, what was in, within my reach at the time. But then I started cycling when I was kind of, when I was a teenager, um, and that expanded my, my reach, right?</p>
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<p>So this idea of possibility to me is also linked to the kind of the landscape that we live in. And as you said, this is a huge country. Amazingly, there's so much to see. Yes. And I know you've experienced that firsthand on a bike going across the country. Um, but i- I think for me, possibility, I grew up in a, a pretty typical working class.</p>
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<p>You know, my parents were both educators, working-class family. Um, and they always, they always encouraged us to just see what was possible. To do our best- Yeah ... to just say, "Look, try it." You know? Put the most into the thing that you want to lean into and see what you can do with it. There was never a, "You're gonna go to do this thing or do that thing, or this career path."</p>
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<p>Um, uh, as well as with sa- things like sports. Hey, you know, cycling wasn't really a big deal in the '80s, especially in small towns in Midwest America. So, uh, you described riding through the mountains, you know, on your bike, and I'd say riding on the, uh, the back roads of rural-ish Michigan in the 1980s on a road bike got some interesting interactions sometimes, so.</p>
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<p>Um, but it was that idea of, of, "Hey, just try it," you know? Um, so to me that's really the kind of the core, I think, of what America represents. </p>
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<p>Yeah, I love that. I love that notion of, yeah, possibilities, of li- of like- </p>
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<p>Yeah ... </p>
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<p>who we're becoming as individuals, but a- also as a community, and also as a country. You know, we- we're still pretty young when you look at other countries globally, you know?</p>
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<p>It's... We're gonna be 250, but when you go to Europe, it's like, wow, like, like- ... you go to Europe and some of the, some of the countries you go into, you're like, "Oh, no, that's old." Like, we're not that old. </p>
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<p>Yeah. </p>
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<p>So when you think about America becoming, and do you see, like, certain stress points or tensions that- </p>
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<p>Hmm</p>
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<p>are making it difficult to really step into who we can completely become? </p>
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<p>Yeah, that's, that's a great question. I think, well, let... We all, I think, can recognize that, um, the notion we were founded on, right, back in 1776, I guess, technically, was when the, the declaration was made, even if the, the, the documents weren't buttoned up for a little while after that.</p>
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<p>Yeah, yeah. </p>
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<p>Um- </p>
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<p>Absolutely, yeah. </p>
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<p>You know, de Tocqueville, I'm a, I am a bit of a, of a history person and, and also a writing and literature person. So you know, de Tocqueville was like, this is... it's pretty radical. I mean, he rec- everyone recognized this. It's hard to fathom right now how different it was to say, "Oh, no, this is...</p>
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<p>The people are gonna weigh in. You know, they get to direct things." Even in the really kind of constrained, very obviously contradictory way that it was at the time of the, of the Founding. Um, he said this is pretty unique, and this idea of being civically engaged, right? Um, and yes, oh, by the way, you've kicked out Native Americans and you used to have slaves, so there's that.</p>
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<p>Um, and he was writing, you know, 40 years after the, um, after independence roughly. But, um, that notwithstanding, it's, um, uh, that, that idea of everyone can have a voice. And we've obviously evolved a lot, and again, we're still, there's still possibility. I think we're still not there. But I think that's, that's the tension, is we've been built on...</p>
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<p>We were built literally from a fracture. </p>
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<p>Yes. </p>
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<p>Right? I mean, we broke away, and there... It wasn't all roses, right? Um, but, uh, it provided a, a place to start and an idea to move toward, right? So I think that's the tension, is that the, it's always, we're always moving toward what we envision is, is possible, what the, the idea of everyone having a voice could be.</p>
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<p>Um, that's the tension I see. And your question, Michael, I think was, well, what's getting in the way? I- </p>
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<p>Yeah ... </p>
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<p>you know, I'm, I'm a little older, sort of like you and I are about the same generation, I think. Um. Yeah. </p>
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<p>Yeah, Gen Xers. </p>
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<p>And so, you know, we, we had the benefit of, of seeing, hey, we... If you wanted to communicate, you had to, A, memorize your friend's phone number if you wanted to talk on the phone.</p>
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<p>Yeah. Yes. But more, more likely you probably were like, "Well, let's get together." And so you, you had to interact. And I think that the tendency now, and, and this isn't a criticism, it's just a reality, is that just like we're doing now, it's, technology's allowed us to do this cool stuff. Um, but the rhythms of life we've gotten into make it just that we just have to kinda go out of our way to interact beyond our small circles.</p>
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<p>Um, I think that's, um, what's kinda getting in our way now of that idea of to have everyone have a voice and for others to hear it, you, you kinda have to make an effort to listen- Yes ... and to try to connect more. And I think there's some impediments in the way that just, it, it makes it more of an effort, I think, than what it, uh, what we wish it could be.</p>
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<p>Um- Yeah, no, I- ... we just have to work through it, so. </p>
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<p>Yeah. I hear you. It's, it's the push for, um, more and faster- </p>
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<p>Mm-hmm ... </p>
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<p>that's, I think, in some ways has pushed out the connection that we once had maybe, like, when we were kids or, you know, even- </p>
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<p>Mm-hmm ... </p>
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<p>you know, different generations where there was more connectivity.</p>
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<p>Like real, like real stuff. Like, you know- Mm-hmm ... could be simply on the phone. It doesn't have to be, like, in person. Like- Right ... you know, we had, like, you know, uh, analog phones and we'd just dial someone up- Yeah ... and we could talk for hours, right? Yeah. Without, without seeing them. Um, and so tho- those moments I think matter.</p>
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<p>That's, that's sort of the glue of- Mm ... the Kintsugi. If we can do more of that, I, you know, to your point, I think we can, like, step into that everyone truly has a voice that can be heard And with that comes greater possibilities. So- Yeah. </p>
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<p>And </p>
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<p>I think- ... I love what you shared. Yeah </p>
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<p>Thank you. And I don't, I don't wanna simplify it and say this is just, oh, back in the day, you know?</p>
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<p>Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. If we all go analog, it's gonna be perfect 'cause... And I, and I have, um, I don't have, uh, human kids, I have dogs, but, um, nieces and nephews and of course friends' kids and, and there's some really, really good genuine, uh, friendships and connections that I see happening. I think the, the, the opportunity and the possibility is that we can just build on that, right?</p>
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<p>Yeah. And be, be intentional about it, uh, despite some of the bumps in the road. </p>
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<p>Yes. Yeah. I... Well, yeah, the whole notion it- it's... I think it's good for, like, news articles and stuff like that. Sure. You know, when you see kids going, like, to a dumb phone or just a analog phone or a flip phone and, uh, so yeah, interesting article to read, but the reality is we're not going back there.</p>
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<p>Like, we have- Yeah ... to find a way to use the technology that we have to further enhance connection, right? 'Cause, uh- Yeah ... the smartphone brings us together today, and so it's not all bad, it's just how we're actually engaging in it and using it, and we could use it, I think, for greater connection. Uh, we just have to be really intentional about that.</p>
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<p>So, so when we think about a birthday- </p>
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<p>Yeah ... </p>
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<p>one of the first things I think of is, like, what kind of cake are we having? So two-part question for you. </p>
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<p>Yeah. </p>
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<p>Um, what kind of cake are you serving for America's birthday? And as we blow out the candles, as we do, we make a wish, so what's the wish- </p>
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<p>Yeah ... </p>
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<p>you have for America as the candles get blown out this summer?</p>
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<p>Hmm. G- well, the cake question is, uh, I mean, the, the default instinct is to say it's actually apple pie, but - </p>
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<p>Oh, okay. All right. Uh, that's good ... uh- You're the first apple pie reference I've heard. That's good. </p>
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<p>Yeah. A- and I'm a bit biased 'cause my mom makes, uh, a, a wicked apple pie and just- </p>
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<p>Okay ... </p>
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<p>she, you know, she's one of the...</p>
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<p>My mom was a, was pre-boomer, you know. My, my parents, they're still alive and kicking and, but they, they were a little just before the, the boomers and, um... And so she, she's the kind of person that doesn't have recipes, right? She just sort of- </p>
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<p>Ah, yeah ... </p>
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<p>knows- Yes ... well, this is what you do, and you just- Yeah ... you know.</p>
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<p>So the crust, you know, makes the pie and, and she makes the best, uh, crust, so, um... And the right kind of apples apparently, you know, baking apples if you- </p>
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<p>Oh, you gotta have the right apples and yeah, the crust- Yeah ... makes the pie. There's no doubt about that. Yeah. Yeah. </p>
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<p>So apple pie. So, um, so we're having apple pie, probably some ice cream thrown on top.</p>
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<p>Okay. </p>
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<p>Um, a- and, uh- By the way, I, I- if I can, I'm gonna insert a little aside here, um- Yeah, sure. Go for it ... in the, in the spirit of answering the what do I wish for. So I was five for the bicentennial. </p>
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<p>Yes. </p>
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<p>And at the time, coincidentally, you know, everyone's, uh, seen the Artemis mission, and it's super cool- Mm-hmm</p>
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<p>that, that's, uh, kind of sparked some, like, oh yeah, okay. There's a little bit of that bleeding through. I mean, it's not getting all the headlines for obvious reasons at the moment , but, um, at the time, in '76, you know, the space program was still a d- pretty big deal. You know, when I grew up, I was fascinated by space and astronauts, and I have a memory, and I also have a picture to prove that I wasn't hallucinating, uh, this in my memories, of me in a bicentennial parade in our little town in a costume that my mom had sewn together, you know, she used to make her costumes and stuff, uh, of an astronaut.</p>
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<p>That's awesome. </p>
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<p>I had a little patch and probably m- one of my dad's, you know, military hats or something. Uh, but it was, um, I remember just this, this sense of celebration, and people were showing up as they were. Like, here's this kid, he's, like, in an astronaut costume. Like, I don't know what it had to do with being in a bicentennial.</p>
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<p>You know, I didn't dress up as, like, a revolutionary soldier or something. Yeah. Uh, it was ... But it was this feeling even at that age of a coming together and just being in the moment, I think. Yeah. Um, what I would wish, you know, my, my wish of what we could be is not to, you know, in the spirit of, of Kintsugi and your work and what you're trying to do here, Michael, is look, we've become who we are because we've kinda done some things that have been big bumps in the road along the way.</p>
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<p>And from those fractures, from those injuries, from those sort of collisions, uh, we've become who we are as a country and as individuals. And I would wish that we, um, sort of like I talked about the landscape, right, of Colorado. Any one of those landscapes is awe-inspiring and amazing in its own right, but as you know, having traversed the country, any landscape or anything i- that's stands alone becomes that much more beautiful when you contrast it with other landscapes or things.</p>
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<p>Yeah. Right? Yeah. It's the contrast that makes it pop, that makes it stand out, and makes you appreciate. You know, like me moving to Michigan, I'm like, "Oh, wow, I have 300 days of sun in Colorado. This is pretty cool." Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But I also appre- but I appreciate where I grew up more- Because of the contrast of having lived somewhere that's not like that.</p>
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<p>Yes. Um, so similarly as Americans, what I, what I would wish for us as a country is to remember that, you know, we are incredibly diverse. You know, we've had waves and waves and decades and centuries of voluntary and involuntary, you know, sort of mixing and mingling of, of who we are. Um, and I would say, you know, it's easy to get overwhelmed by this sense of monolithic, like us-them- Yeah</p>
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<p>or this part of our country or our culture. And if you just look around, and this kind of technology is a great example of how can we come together in ways that maybe we're geographically limited. Maybe there aren't that many diverse voices in my area or different voices, you know, for me. Um, how can I find some other people and be curious and learn some new stuff?</p>
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<p>Um, connect with people that I may not have otherwise connected with or connected in a different way with people that I wouldn't have otherwise found, right? "Hey, we have this in common. How cool." </p>
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<p>Yeah. </p>
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<p>And so I, I would love for us to continue to discover and really engage as individuals and as communities.</p>
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<p>You know, I think it's, it's easy to think about the 300 and however many million of us there are now and get overwhelmed instead of just simply going out the door and, or picking up the phone or- </p>
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<p>Yeah ... </p>
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<p>setting up a meeting like this and having a conversation. And I'd say- Yeah ... I would wish that we could continue to do more of that and be open to the conversation.</p>
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<p>Yeah, start with one. And what's possible. Like one, one is, one is greater than zero, right? And so then one- That's right ... can build into two and then so forth and so on. </p>
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<p>Absolutely. </p>
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<p>Yeah, when, when, when you see the problem as so large, it can feel daunting and overwhelming, and then we just end up getting stuck or we go back to- Mm-hmm</p>
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<p>how we, you know, our habitual patterns or the groove that we happen to be in. So in order to- </p>
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<p>Yeah ... </p>
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<p>find this way to heal and come together, we gotta get out of the groove and, uh, and maybe get a little uncomfortable and start reaching out more and, and connecting, so. And speaking of connecting, one of the things I've been doing is the previous citizen who I chatted with, Steve from Indiana- </p>
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<p>Yeah</p>
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<p>he has a question for you, and then you'll get to serve up a question for the next citizen of the country I speak with. So Steve's question to you is: What is your-- What, what do you wish your legacy to be, and, and what are you doing to make it happen? </p>
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<p>That's a great question. For me personally, I would love my legacy to be helping other people, and I, in my professional life, I'm trying to focus that on our generation, Gen X, but it's really whoever I can, can impact to help others lean into their full potential.</p>
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<p>Mm. </p>
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<p>There's a midlife aspect to that, obviously. Yeah. There's this tendency to be like, "Okay, cashing out. I'm done." But I plan to be around for a while, um, even if it's, you know, however many more years. Something could, could happen, but, um, I wanna help other people kind of reignite that spark and remember that there's endless possibility.</p>
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<p>You just have to start moving in a direction and try, um, instead of, as you said, just sort of feeling overwhelmed and s- kind of staying stuck. So my legacy, I would love to be, um, yeah, just helping other people grow into their full potential. And what I'm doing is, is turning my professional attention to that now in my- Awesome.</p>
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<p>Yeah. Please. I love that you're doing that. That's really cool. Uh, uh, that's awesome. Oh, what question do you have for someone else? </p>
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<p>Ah, well, it's easy to be really negative, uh, about the state of things. So I, I would- Yeah ... I'm gonna ask a very specific question, which is, what are you most optimistic about for the next decade?</p>
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<p>Okay, cool. </p>
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<p>And how are you making that become reality? </p>
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<p>I like that. That's a great question. A little hope and optimism is good for the soul. We need it to get through the difficult moments. You know, if you stop believing, it's hard to, like, plow through the cracks and crevices and the muddy moments. So, uh, gotta find a way to keep pedaling.</p>
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<p>So, uh, with that, I wanna thank you. Thank you for coming on- </p>
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<p>Yeah ... </p>
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<p>Perfectly Imperfect and, uh, doing what you're doing to, uh, make us a stronger union. So, uh, I appreciate you, brother. </p>
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<p>I appreciate you making this happen. Great to see you, Michael. </p>
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<p>Yeah. Peace. </p>
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<p>Peace.</p>
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<p>Chris captures something essential in his wish, to celebrate our diversity. That's what makes us strong as a country, all the different perspectives. And when we include them, we can create a better tomorrow, not just for some of us, but for all of us. Of course, I think we all know that if we really want to come together, it will take more than just wishing.</p>
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<p>It will take action. And maybe that action starts with a conversation, a conversation that allows us to be fully seen, heard, and appreciated, or I would say loved, one human to another Even if we don't see the world the same way, I believe that 97% of people are good. There's a like-heartedness in that goodness.</p>
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<p>And if we lead with our heart, we can be open to different mindedness. That's how we can come together and form a more perfectly imperfect union. If today's conversation resonated with you, I hope you'll share it with someone you know. And if either you or someone you know would like to join me for a conversation, please reach out.</p>
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<p>And until our next episode in our Perfectly Imperfect Union series, let's remember to celebrate our scars as golden symbols of our strength and resilience. Happy birthday, America. And don't forget to have fun storming the castle.</p>
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<p>And if you wish to learn more about creating beautiful ripples and how to prevent a bad moment from turning into a bad day, please visit my website, michaelobrienshift.com and sign up for my newsletter called The Ripple Effect. And join us each Monday, Wednesday, and Friday here at Whole Again and discover how you can heal, grow, and become more resilient and celebrate our scars as golden symbols of strength and resilience.</p>
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<p>Until then, remember, you can always come back to your breath. You've got this and we've got you.</p>